Talk:Great Tribulation

Sequence of events

This section is full of weasel words. We hear that "some believe" this or "it is held by some" that without any citations of who holds it or why. If the person entering that simply made it up themselves, then it is original research, although "research" is putting it politely. "Sheer speculation" would be fairer.

The whole section, IMO, should be cut down to

Revelation's Sequence of Events

Here is a list of events mentioned in the book of Revelation, some of which (usually attributed to the seven trumpets) occur during the Great Tribulation period:

Seven Seals

• The White Horse of the Apocalypse. When he comes, he is given a crown and he goes out as a conquerer bent on conquest
• When the Red Horse comes the rider is given a large sword and he takes peace from the world, causing men to kill each other.
• When the Black Horse comes he causes famine.
• The Pale Horse causes death (by plague).

These four are given "power over one fourth of the earth" to "kill by sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth".

• Martyrs begin dying during the Tribulation.
• Worldwide earthquake followed by the darkening of the sun and moon, and the stars in the sky fall to earth.
• Silence in Heaven, followed by fire being hurled to the Earth.

(Note: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, are symbols for the events of the first four seals. They represent events as seen in a vision by the John of Patmos. As they are allegorical, no horsemen are expected to be seen galloping during the tribulation. Those who believe in the literal truth of the Bible, however, expect these things to be real.)

Inaccurate Sixth Seal Summary

The descriptions of the solar and lunar images are inaccurate. Both do not darken. Only the Sun ceases to emit visible light. The Moon assumes the appearance of blood. In the absence of visible light, the red color could be attributed to a form of luminescence. Additional global phenomena were presented in Revelation 6:12-17 that were omitted from the summary. No statement was made to justify the omisions. Tcisco 19:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Seven Trumpets

• Hail, fire, and blood fall upon the earth, burning one-third of the earth, trees, and grass.
• A burning mountain plummets into the sea, turning a third of the sea to blood and destroying a third of all ships on the sea and creatures in it.
• A star called Wormwood falls onto the Earth poisoning the freshwater sources such as streams and rivers.
• Sun, stars and moon are darkened by one-third.
• Plague of indestructible locusts ravage the wicked forces of the Antichrist, inflicting endless pain. Many will try to kill themselves from the pain, but "death will flee from them". There is mention that believers will be sealed by God first, and the locusts will not attack them upon seeing God's seal on them.
• Over 200 million horsemen kill one-third of wicked left on Earth with massive strikes, fire, and smoke.
• Lightning, hailstorm, and earthquakes.

Seven trumpets! And here's me thinking it was seven strumpets!PiCo 03:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Seven Thunders

• Revelation Chapter 10:3-4. 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down."
• Revelation Chapter 10:7. 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
• Some view this as a portion of the "Battle Plan" of God which can not be revealed lest His enemies make preparations. Another verse which supports this theory is Revelation Chapter 10:10 which says, "10 I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour."

Seven Vial (Bowl) Judgments (God's Wrath)

• Painful sores. (These sores only affect those bearing the mark of the beast, who worship his image.)
• Sea turns to blood
• Rivers turn to blood
• Sun burns with intense heat and scorches people.
• Antichrist's kingdom is plunged into darkness.
• Euphrates River dries up and is prepared for battle from the armies from the east.
• Worldwide earthquake leveling every mountain into the sea followed by huge hailstones and lightning.

Sourcing needed

This entire section is original research. It needs to be removed unless the interpretation is sourced, and differences between sects are explained, again with verification Superm401 - Talk 09:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

=The Sufic View

Some facts might be helpful; for instance the identity of the two beasts of Revelation as the 3-in-one as the Axis and the false prophet as the beast of Marxism. ````Unicorn144````Feb. 20, 2007 (UTC)

Even with this pruning, it is still petty unencyclopaedic. And it fails to provide a precis of the sequence of events (the 144000, the woman and the dragon, the witnesses, the fall of babylon, the judgment).

Really, this whole section ether needs redoing, or should be removed. But at the very least, all the speculation about what the apostle "might" have meant or what "some belive" the words actually mean should definitely go ASAP.

Paul Murray 19:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey Unicorn144, prophecy is by nature speculative, and Revelation is surreal, so any claims of presenting "facts" or "actual information" will be met with resistance. The article is intended to reflect the various opinions of notable scholars. Hence, whatever you add needs to be referenced to whomever you are deriving the information from. - JethroElfman 05:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I Give Up Here!

This article is the straw that broke the camel's back. If we can't keep out the insane people then what's the point? We will edit the article to get rid of the cultist's views of Pre-Trib Rapture trying to taint everything they touch and all those American crazy cultists will come back and piss all over it again. I am a Biblical Scholar working on a current translation of the Bible. I have these people who have drank so much Kool-Aid I am surprised they are still alive, come to my YouTube channel screaming and swearing at me and threatening me that I will be beheaded, and that I will have to pay for my sins with my own blood, since the "Age of Grace" will have ended at the time of the Rapture, and other insane Anti-Christian ideas, etc... And they claim to hold the "true" Christian view of a Pre-Trib Rapture. There is no Spirit of Christ and of God in them. And their fingerprints are ALL OVER this article. It is so rife with problems I would just scratch the whole thing and start over. But how to keep their filthy fingers off of it? Historian09041965 (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

@Historian09041965: The basics of Wikipedia: if you have no WP:RS, you have nothing. Your own word won't do. And I agree, there is nothing about a rapture in the Bible, before, during, or after the Tribulation. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:45, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

@Historian09041965: I think there's a few things about Wikipedia that need clearing up here. First and most importantly, you need to stop making hateful remarks about groups of people and editors ("keep their filthy fingers off of it" and other things you wrote elsewhere). It absolutely will not be tolerated. Second, and maybe I'm off base with this since I haven't actually checked out the sourcing in the article, but you should know that we aren't and shouldn't make any claims about what beliefs are or are not supported by the Bible. This group can believe whatever they want, so long their beliefs are documented by reliable sources and we summarize what's in those sources in a balanced way. Now maybe the article was stating things that weren't supported by sources at all, and it would be totally right for you to want that removed. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Yup, it's a reasoning made through conflating several Bible verses in a purportedly Sola Scriptura way. But like any explicit mention of the Trinity, you won't find any explicit mention of the Rapture in the Bible. The orthodox view is that the Trinity is the only way of making sense of the Bible, yet, as said before, the Trinity as a concept is never mentioned in the Bible. So, there is a difference between based upon the Bible and mentioned inside the Bible. E.g. the seven words of the dying Jesus are based upon the Bible, yet you won't find these words in any (i.e. one) book of the Bible. Those seven words are a reconstruction of what might have happened according to the Bible. So, mentioned in the Bible means a verbatim mention in the letter of the Bible, while based upon the Bible is always some inferences away from the plain letter of the Bible. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't mean this snarkily at all, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say about what we should include in this article. Like I stated above, as editors we aren't deciding or reporting on what's based on the Bible or mentioned in the Bible. That's irrelevant. We just report what this group believes according to reliable sources. -- Fyrael (talk) 04:17, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Evidently you missed the problem. And your chastisement of me is doing exactly what you are supposedly criticizing me for. "filthy fingers" is appropriate for what they are doing that violates Wikipedia rules of editing. But perhaps you missed that. It is not demeaning a group of people. It is criticizing a practice of a group to violate Wikipedia and make this an intolerable effort to bring objective knowledge.

1. 1 I am fed up with these cultists coming in and spreading their views in parts of the articles NOT about their views, but the views of others. They skew these views, pepper in all kinds of slants that are not at all objective, slander the other views, misrepresent, etc... How will you control the poison of one group against another.
2. 2 The Bible IS a source, when you are discussing what the Bible says about a certain topic. In fact, the New Testament in the Greek is considered a primary source in Biblical Studies. I am a Biblical Scholar and professional Bible translator. So, then how do I cite myself?
3. 3 I find the articles on Christianity horribly destroyed by these people. It is not objective at all. The misrepresentation of Catholics by these anti-Catholics who think it is the church of the Devil makes articles useless. This is one example. The misrepresentation of post-Tribulation Rapture belief, written by Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers is horrendous! They are just using Wikipedia for propaganda and you take the time out to criticize me for pointing out a very real and repeatedly criticized problem by others as well.
4. 4 Sources can be selectively culled to unfairly criticize another group. That is very common in the Christianity pages. That has to stop.

Historian09041965 (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

This is a bit dated, so the response is intended more for people reading this later (as they often do) so that there is an answer to some of the problematic elements laid out above, starting with the following: The Bible IS a source, when you are discussing what the Bible says about a certain topic. In fact, the New Testament in the Greek is considered a primary source in Biblical Studies. I am a Biblical Scholar and professional Bible translator. So, then how do I cite myself? I'm not picking on @Historian09041965: because a lot of editors, especially new ones, make this mistake. You do not cite yourself here. That would be original research, which we do not do. Read that linked guideline and make sure you understand it. Yes, the Bible is (and can be) a source; but it's a primary source. If you're referencing the Bible for a quote, or something very specific where you're simply stating what is stated in the primary source, then that's fine. But the minute you cross over and apply something interpretive to it, then you MUST have a secondary source that says that - and says it specifically. See point #2 about primary sources: Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. With that understanding, refer to the note here: WP:RSPSCRIPTURE. (And for anyone suggesting that you cannot use the primary source and/or the Bible at all, then you are misreading/misunderstanding the policy as well - just in a different way.) Our objective here is provide encyclopedic content, and that means "we" as editors are not writing original research. We are presenting information from reliable sources. The rest of the complaints above can be summed up by the following: If you find things on Wikipedia that are not objective, or not WP:NPOV, then your job as an editor is to work on fixing and improving that. But unless you're replacing biased or uncited information with your own personal original research, then you're not solving the problem - you're just replacing one problem with another. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Untitled

The Reference New Testament Revelations 7:14 is inaccurate, "the great tribulation" should read "great tribulation" only. Nowhere in ancient Hebrew or Greek does this verse reference a certain period of time, rather tribulation all those in Christ go through. Jesus stated one will go through much tribulation entering into the Kingdom of God, this is the meaning of Revelation 7:14. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8004:20E0:2B4B:B698:57DE:1FE0:C96 (talk) 00:12, 13 May 2023 (UTC)